Why Most Sales Teams Fail: Chuck Thokey on Building High-Performing Teams

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: what many people think coaching is, is that I'm gonna sit here and give you advice. No, that's called a trainer or a mentor. you already know your job, you know your position. what I'm trying to do is to really pull that knowledge that you already have and things that you already know.

Carmen: Hey everyone, my name is Carmen Durvad and this is Behind the Founders. Joining me today is Chuck Toki. Chuck, welcome. Can you introduce yourself?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: Yeah, thank you so much. So again, like you said, my name's Charles Toki, Chuck Toki, and I am the founder of a company called Top Rep. So we are the largest in the home improvement space when it comes to coaching for sales and sales leadership.

Carmen: Nice. Thank you so much for the lovely introduction. So, how did you get started on top rep sales training?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So we got started. I I've been coaching for quite a while. And I got in with a mentor of mine, Jim Johnson. And about halfway through, we decided that we wanted to really bring a different kind of brand or feel to coaching and wanted to change the way people got coached. And so we built top rep and it exploded. You know, you would think that, you know, it would take a long time to ramp things up and we had our first event we sold that first event out and we've been selling out events twice a year every year for the last five years and that's probably the smallest thing we do are the events and so we do a ton of one-on-ones we do a lot of group coaching we are about to launch top rep 2.0 which is an entirely different way of even looking at coaching in this industry So it's you know, we're we're venturing on certain things that have never been done inside the coaching industry at all.

Carmen: Okay, great. So obviously, you know, for the listeners out there, right, coaching has so many different directions, so many different fields and focus areas. So in terms of your space of coaching and so on, is it primarily focused on the home service sales or what else, what are your primary focuses?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: We we've coached so many different but we really focus on home improvement and home services. So a lot of your roofing, siding, windows, baths, the but we're also getting very big in the HVAC, plumbing, electrical, those types of home services as well.

Carmen: Okay, great. So for the listeners out there who have never ever came across top rep sales training, could you walk them through and explain to them what exactly is your mission and purpose and what you do?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: You know, so with home improvement, a lot of these people, they're either sales reps that wanted to start their own business, or they are labor that wanted to start their own business. Either way, most of them don't understand how to run their business or how to get business. You know, they think that if I build it, they will come. And that just doesn't happen. You know, it's a a cute little saying that doesn't work. So, you

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: know, we help them to understand. How to bring that business through the front door, how to sell it effectively. The other thing in our industry, for years and years, people have been talking a lot about hard closing. I don't know if you know what hard closing is. hard

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: closing or hard sales is when you invite somebody into your house that you wish you didn't once you get them in, and

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: they just pretty much beat on you until you buy. That's the easy way of saying it, but that's

Carmen: wow. Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: what our industry. Has been built on. if you've

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: ever seen the the movie Ten Men or any of that, where they come in and they lie to you for an hour and a half to get you to buy a product that you may or may not even want. So what we have done is we've really changed the model. We've taken it to where we can compound your close rate or compound the profitability while doing it ethically. And, you know, and so we have some of the largest companies. in the United States and Canada that we started with and then now what makes up a majority of our business are those businesses between five and twenty million.

Carmen: Right. Yeah. So yeah, I was also just looking at your LinkedIn profile, right? And I'm reading that you have worked with, you know, different varieties of organizations, including Rebath, Bath Fitter, Able Roof, Mr. Roof, and you helped them grow the sales over a hundred and fifty percent. So during that process, what did you discover? What were some of the approaches that you used to help them succeed in that level?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So first, you know, companies like that that are rather large when we got in and they're exponentially larger now. actually they're the largest companies in the United States when it comes to home improvement now. And what we had been able to do or what I was able to do when I was their director of sales or VP was build a team. If there's one thing that I'm really good at is building a team within an organization, understanding who needs to be on the team. Most people, when they're building a team out there looking for great individuals, well, that's great and all, that's wonderful, but do they match the culture?

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: That's the thing that most people don't really get or understand. And when you get a team, and it may they may not be, you know, the the hardest working or the best closers, but if I can get a consistent team together, they will outclose anybody we come in contact with. Consistency and culture are the two things we look for in every every organization we walk into.

Carmen: All right, let's talk a little bit more about consistency and culture. So obviously, you know, every culture is gonna be different depending on the business setup, depending on the company. But from the experience that you've had, what would you say are the key ingredients or positive elements that make up of a very healthy, thriving teen culture?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So when I come in, I I'm gonna ask them and they kind of know where I'm coming from, but I'm gonna ask them, is this a rec league or is this a professional team? Like when you you know when we have kids and we put them all in YMCA sports and everybody gets a they get a chance and then you find out that your kid's the one by the the goal picking daisies, you know, watching the ball roll into the goal. you know, those that's what we find so often. You know, you have these these organizations where You know, that if if you can fog them here, you can come in and they think that they can turn everybody into a great salesperson or a great leader. That's just not the case. You know, so when once we get their buy-in that they want to be a part of a great, you know, professional team, we look at at these NFL teams. And what most people don't get is that a majority of the team isn't on the field. They're up in the stands. They didn't even make the field. And then a majority of the people that made the field don't even get to take the field. They don't even get to play. So when we look at at why that is, is that you have to earn your right to play. You have to, as a sales rep, we are the corporate athletes in our game. They have to earn their right to get the leads. They have to earn their right to have an opportunity. And some of these companies. They have to go out and prospect their own opportunities. but in a majority of them, you know, companies that are very well run, they have this, I like to call it a factory, you know. So the sales reps don't have to go out and prospect. They do their job by going out and selling. They rip off the the rear view mirror, and they go out, they do their job, they sell. And then when it's time to follow up, they have a whole separate division that follows up. They, they're the ones that So you have a a division that goes out and prospects or brings the leads in. You have another organization or a department that will sell the job. And if they can't, then it gets to the next department, which follows up on that. You know, you've

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: hire people that do things that they like to do and do them better than anybody else.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense as well. And as you're when it comes to going through the sales process, especially the closing or objection handling or identifying prospects, what would you say are the biggest challenges that you've been facing as a team, also particularly in the sales aspect?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: You know, you're always still dealing with humans and they're not

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: on a hundred percent of the time. Yeah. And

Carmen: They're complicated. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you have to know how to deal with your players. we like to say you gotta know how to play the players. You know, understand who you have, and that it's okay when somebody slides a little bit. You're still gonna you're gonna put them on the bench and but you're going to retrain them, you're gonna do what you need to do. To find out what's going on so that you can get them back off the bench and get them back on the field as soon as possible. But you have to have a strong bench because if you don't have a strong bench, you can't do that. You're at their mercy. And that sales rep knows it. You know, they know that they can take a break and they don't have to worry about you because you can't do anything to them because you need them to run leads, whether they're on or or, you know, they just don't feel like running that lead today. You know, so you know, you have to know your players and how to work with your players, but also have a strong bench. Have the ability to put somebody on the bench if at all needed.

Carmen: Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense as well. And I think it's also really important to look at the teams in a very holistic way as well, you know, because everybody has different strengths and how it would operate together as like one unit as well is also a key factor to consider as well. So let's talk a little bit about your current team setup. So with top reps sales training, I see that you've been around for almost 10 years. nine years, ten years. tell the tell us a little bit about your current team setup, how many of you are there, who does what, whether it's remote, on site.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So we have a rather large team. however, when it comes to coaching, there's three of us. I'm not big on these huge coaching teams because again,

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you know, you have to be able to coach at a certain standard and at a certain level. And that's what we're expected. You know, we we don't want to be at the detriment of a coach that, you know, just decides that they just don't feel it today. So there's only three of us, and you know, we we all feed off of each other. the the two guys that I brought in are some of the best sales leaders I've ever worked with, and then brought them in here. The best way to do this is you when you're gonna go out and look for a coach. If you're a coaching firm and you want to bring in other coaches, the last thing you do is get on social media and say, I'm looking for coaches. You're gonna get

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: the worst coaches. It's almost like getting on social media and saying, Hey, we're hiring for sales reps. You're gonna get the worst sales reps, you're gonna get the worst coaches, you're gonna get the most desperate people you've ever seen.

Carmen: Mm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So we go out and we look for the best. And a lot of these folks that have been doing this a while, they're tired. You know, they want to to matter. They want to get out there and and keep doing what they're doing, but they want to do it in a different capacity. You know, they get a little bored where they're currently at. And so we had found Mike and and Brian, those are other two coaches. We found them and they are the best in what they do. Then of course we have our sales, which is run by Ashley, and she is probably one of the best sales professionals when it comes to SaaS and coaching that we've ever run across. That's why I won't say her last name because everybody's gonna bombard her. She is amazing.

Carmen: Yeah, they all want to look for her.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: Yes. but she is amazing and she doesn't stop, even she's a lot like me. When she's on vacation, she's still texting, making phone calls. you just can't turn her off. And

Carmen: Mm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: then of course, like I mentioned to you, we have a large staff of VAs. And at first I didn't really know what to do with a VA. When somebody came to me and says, you guys need a VA, and I'm What am I gonna do with a what am I gonna

Carmen: Right.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: do with an assistant? It has nothing to do with virtual. But with an assistant. And so I I got jet. And the the joke in the industry, we hear this all the time, is man, I d I need a jet. Well, people that don't know the joke, they think that, you know, we actually have a private jet. Like, no, his name is Jet. And he he was my very first VA and Jet now runs our company. He went from being my assistant, checking my email, because I didn't know what else you're supposed to do with an assistant ten years

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: ago.

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: But he went from that to he runs our company. He is the Greece. He if you if he left, I don't know if I'd even know how to run my own organization. That's that's how involved he's been. you know, it's it's been great. And so I says, Well, we need another one. And so

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: went out and got a few more and loved him to death. But then I found out not everybody's like jet.

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: You know, you there's just like anything else when you go out and you find people that some of them just don't mix.

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: and so we've gone through a few to get so every one of so Ashley has a VA, I've got a VA, mine's Mitch. I think I talk to her than more than I talk to my own wife. But

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you know, the Mike's got a VA and so does Brian. because when we're on, like if I'm sitting here with you. I don't want to sit here and write notes and and try to remember what I'm going to send you.

Carmen: Yeah, of course.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: I can pay full attention to you. And Mitch is writing the notes, you using the note takers and sending the documents that I'm telling you I'm gonna send you. And then because

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: we we'll have we'll work 10 hours a day and we have 10 clients. So it we go straight from one right into the next one. And

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: so while I'm working on that next client. Mit just sending all the documentation that I promised that last client. So it's yeah.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just to keep things rolling. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: But yeah, we have a a rather large team. Then we have our our digital team and we have our IT team because we do a lot with AI. We're also the only coach that has simulators, so you can practice and role play everything.

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: now simulators are getting to be a big thing in our industry, or role play bots, if you will. But we have continuously worked on this role play bot so that it it's you know, it it's the most advanced in the home improvement industry.

Carmen: Yeah. Well, Chuck, thank you so much for breaking down your team setup as well. I do have a couple of follow-up questions. And I guess

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: A lot. Yeah, please.

Carmen: the first question that I wanted to ask you was you talked a lot about when it comes to looking for good coaches or sales

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: huh.

Carmen: or VAs, you don't go, you know, post and pray on social media websites. So what are some of the strategies that you have come to find have worked really effectively to be able to find and identify the right talent for your organization.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So one of the ways that we do it is through a we have a an organization that goes out and finds talent for us. And 'cause I don't like to poach, I let them do it for me.

Carmen: Yeah. Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: because I you know, I wouldn't want anybody coming and stealing our people. So I won't

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: do it directly, but they do it in such a way that they get it into the mainstream so that you know, we get the better talent. that because I I don't want anybody that's not working. You know, I I I feel if you're not working right now, then somebody doesn't want you and neither do I. But

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: because we we really are looking for an elevated and and very highly paid individual that we can trust and not have to watch over. And so sometimes that might take us three or four months to find

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: that. perfect person that we feel is the best for our industry or for our our organization.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So yeah, it's it's not easy. There's no doubt. a lot of these people like I like how you say post and pray, because that's what we see so often. And we know that they're gonna

Carmen: Yeah, it happens a lot.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: end up with very bottom level talent.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. That makes sense. And at the end of the day, it's all about really quality versus the urgency to fill a role. Of course, ideally it would be great to have both as well. But at the end of the day, if you're looking at it from a very long-term perspective, you want that to be very a sustainable, it it should be sustainable as well. so just like going back to what you mentioned earlier, you're saying that you're looking for A clone of jet basically. so in terms of the challenges right now, do you feel like there are any operational challenges in terms of hiring needs to grow your team?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: There's always those challenges.

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: And one of the biggest challenges is everybody has their skill set. They don't always match the the skill set that you're looking for, but they come really close. And so we wonder, we want to know are are they coachable? Are they if I'm willing to put the money in to send them to get trained in a certain SaaS product? or to do a certain job, you know, will they would they be willing to go back and go into training to get that that that specialty? Yeah. So we are looking for those specialized individuals, but yes it It's you know, I've heard I heard somebody mention that you never hire the person and build the the position around them. You build the position and you hire the the person around it, and that's also not possible. People think it is, and they just get really close to it, like I've mentioned. And so that's what we'll we will do is we try to find that person that closest matches that position, and then we fill the gaps. as we as we can. and then we determine so we do hire our or we hire slow fire fast. If we find out that you know we're gonna hit your ceiling and we're not we're not gonna get you to to learn anymore, we will have to move past you. we never

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: want our business to be at the the employees detriment. We don't want

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: it where they stop learning and the the the business has to stop because our employees stop.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense as well. just to follow up earlier on, you brought up that you are running a coaching simulation. Tell us more a little bit about that.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So we have our simulator in it, like top rep, top gun. So we call it a simulator. And every part of the sale is inside that simulator. So you'll go in, you'll hit start, and you'll hear a door knock. The door will open and Jenny, she's the homeowner, and she will answer the door. And your job is to work your way into the house, and you'll go through that entire process. And every phase of the sale, it'll stop after you have completed that phase, and then it will break down everything. it's this is the only simulator that it'll like you'll see just like the just like in this. podcast, you'll see the two. You'll see Jenny and then you'll see me. What it's doing with me is it is analyzing my body language. So

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: it'll tell me you look bored, that your your posture is lazy. I mean,

Carmen: Mm

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: it'll go through every piece and part of what it sees, but it also goes with my tonality. There's

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: five tones. And so there's only

Carmen: Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: three that we monitor. And so it'll tell you When you're in the right tone, it'll tell you when you've gotten the right pauses. so it really takes you and turns you into that professional that any any coach would love to have you. so it will break it down. It will also through AI, it will tell

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you what you did right and what you could have done better throughout that, what you could have said differently. But it

Carmen: Mm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: goes through every part of the sale, the inspection. the trial close, the price presentation, what we call the closing roadmap, which is rebuttal handling, those types of things.

Carmen: Yeah, I think that's really interesting that there is this simulation rolled out as well, just so that the coaches are able to also upskill in terms of how they facilitate, how they communicate, how they offer feedback and so on and so forth. And first question I have is from your experience, what makes an out a coach, a good coach, stand out from the other average coaches, if that makes sense. And secondly, I guess we can talk a little bit about that later as well, but I would just love to know your thoughts on AI and so on.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: So what we have found in the coaching industry, I've I've been in the coaching industry for about 10 years now. And what we had found through the data is that one in a thousand coaches actually make it. And so every there's so many people that want to coach. They I will tell you, very few coaches should actually be coaching.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: and here's why. I've been very lucky to have the godfather of coaching. His name is Keith Rosen. he wrote a book and he coaches on a very broad scale. but he wrote a book, Coaching Sales People into Sales Champions. And I wrote I read the book a long, long time ago. I mean, this was over 20 years ago, and his number at that point, his number was in the back of the book, so I called it and he actually answered. And so him and I started coaching way back then. And I gotten that opportunity to understand what a true coach is. Now, what many people think coaching is, is that I'm gonna sit here and give you advice. No, that's called a trainer or a mentor. That's not a coach. Coaches,

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: if I was gonna sit here and coach you, I'm gonna sit here and ask you a bunch of questions because Carmen, if you already know the answers, if you're gonna come to me and get coached, you already know your job, you know your position. And so what I need to do is I need to pull that knowledge out of you because if it came out of your head, then it's fact. If it comes out of my head, then it's just a good idea. So what I'm trying to do is to really pull that knowledge that you already have and things that you already know. You may not be comfortable doing them, but you know, it is your thing. That's what you do. And so you know, that's that's how we coach. The other part of this is that we know where we want to end. You know, through an assessment that you take before we ever start coaching, we know what success looks like to you. And our job is to get you there as fast as possible. A lot of these coaches, they're more worried about their own pocketbook. So they want you all year long. I want

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you for four to eight weeks. That's it. Because I don't have time to have you for all year long. And so it's like, can I correct the behavior? Can I get you on track in the next four to eight weeks so I can open up other spots for other people to come in? because we deal with quite a few, anywhere between 40 and 50 companies at a time. And so we don't always have that ability to keep that that coaching relationship going. And so what we do from there is we pull you into a growth group coaching. So once we got you back on track, we go into group coaching. It's more like a mastermind type thing. And we also have a membership with, I mean, it's got the videos that all coaches have that nobody watches. you know, I'm sure you've you've seen those where they have a big platform of videos that somebody watches once and never watches again. We have

Carmen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: that, but then we we spin it a little bit differently because we know that people Don't watch those more than once. And so, you know, we keep continue to drip other videos into your your inbox, so that you know it's we know it's very timely. And we know about from the time that we start with you, being that doing this 10 years, that as you get further away from your coaching, things certain things will happen. And so we drip certain videos into your inbox. And it it's funny, people are like, It's like you're watching me and it's like, No, I just know this is week twenty-five

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: and this is probably happening right now. And they're like, Yeah, it's exactly what's happening. So,

Carmen: Yeah.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: you know, this it all goes into coaching. It's why we continue to grow as fast as we do, and why so many companies, you know, they they spread the word about top rep as fast as they do.

Carmen: Yeah. I like what you mentioned about when it comes to what makes a coach stand out from a mentor or a trainer or like an advisor, so to speak, is that the first the first analogy that came to my mind is that as a coach, you are literally holding a mirror, right? And seeing a reflection. And basically they already know. Their answers from within, and you are serving as a guide to kind of like walk you through and navigate, you know, the next steps as well, rather than okay, here's what you're gonna do, but rather asking the right questions to kind of direct them in the right path as well. So what as you were talking, Chuck, the first thing that really came to my mind was really like they are holding a mirror and really exposing whether it's comfortable or uncomfortable as well, but it is essential, it is necessary in order for them to be able to succeed what whatever they want to do as well. So that just came to my mind. I just wanted to share that.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: You know, another thing is that a good coach is also a good mentor, is also a good friend, is also a good trainer. So it coaches don't just coach. You know, it depends on what's needed at the time. And we ask permission to mentor. We ask permission to train. and so and it's not so that they can give me permission, it's so that they know what what's coming, where where is this information going to be coming from?

Carmen: Yeah, makes sense. And in terms of the space of AI, you know, you talked a lot about how you're integrating AI for the coaching simulation in terms of the body language, in terms of the tone, in terms of how they show up in communication and so on. are there any other aspects of your business where you are integrating AI or training your team members to utilize in the process.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: AI is a great tool. It also makes fake coaches, unfortunately. and there is a term that I've heard a few months ago called AI slop. And you know, the AI can be great and it can also kill you. It can it can kill your credibility, it can because it it hallucinates, it will give you the wrong information in many cases. so you really have to be careful what you do with AI, especially

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: when you're a business advisor of any kind, because the moment that that company that's paying you, they're not paying Claude, they're not paying Chat GPT, they realize that you're getting your information from AI. They get they start to feel cheated. They start to feel like, why am I using you when I can just ask Claude these these questions? And You know, it it also does gives a broad answer rather than the right answer. And so it's very easy to find if somebody's gonna do that. So you gotta be very careful with AI. But it can be very powerful if you use it as research. If you

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: want to use AI, use it as research. Do not use it in any f form or fashion of customer facing. we've seen this where people have tried to use it as a clone.

Carmen: Mm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: And those clones will go in. And if you don't if you don't use the clone right, it will venture outside of your content to go find content. But if you if you do it right, it doesn't. You there's safeguards to make sure that it stays inside of your YouTube channel, that it stays inside of all your content, all of your training videos, everything, so that when your client asks it a question. that it really is information, it's AI, but it's information that's coming from you, not where it couldn't quite find the answer it wanted. So it goes into its bank of fake information to pull it.

Carmen: Yeah. In a way, when it comes to navigating navigating all these different AI tools, it is actually in fact a skill, right? Because you also need to understand how to even, for example, generate the right prompts in order to really get and extract the correct information or data bank or ideas that you're looking for too. Because oftentimes, as mentioned, it could be a very powerful tool to automate, optimize. give you ideas, but you have to also understand what exactly you're looking for in order to get what you want, because oftentimes that can be overused in a different way, or often it can be abused in a different way, too. I just wanted to ask one final question for

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: Mm-hmm.

Carmen: the listeners out there.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: Yeah.

Carmen: if For an example, there are people considering to start a business and you've been in the business for a while. If you are if you could look or if you could share one piece of advice or insight from your whole journey to where you are now in terms of starting a business for people considering to start it, what would it be?

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: Wow, that's that's big. you know, a big piece of advice is if you're going to seek out information, the easiest and most affordable, but also the toughest information you can get is through a mentor. But here's the thing is that you actually do end up paying mentors. You pay them by doing what they suggest you to do. Because the moment that a mentor tells you something, and this is usually a business owner that's done it and has been extremely successful, but the moment that they find out that you did not use their information, that you didn't act on their information, they're done. They cut you off. They no longer want

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: to talk to you. They feel like you're a waste of time. and so anything that as long as is if you're gonna go out and look for a mentor, but same thing for a good coach. because we've let a few of our clients go where we just wonder, it's like you're not doing anything that we're asking you to do. And so I I don't want to take any more of your money and because I feel like I'm making a lot of money with you not doing anything. so you know it's it's really the same if you have a really good coach that you better do what they ask you to do or they will just stop. So that's kind

Carmen: Mm. Makes sense.

Chuck Thokey - TOP REP: of what I would would kind of put in that category.

Carmen: Yeah, no, that's definitely a very refreshing perspective as well for potential entrepreneurs or business owners to consider when starting a business, really to take advice, work with a coach, be able to get to where they are as well. Chuck, again, thank you so, so much for coming on to our podcast. This is Behind the Founders. Be sure to stay tuned for the next episode. thanks again.