How a Father-Son Conversation Sparked a Boot Camp Revolution

Erik Gross: for anybody going through this entrepreneurial journey, this founder's journey, that's where I think some of the most valuable work can be done is treating yourself kindly. The very fact that you had this idea and you cared enough to even try to start something and launch it into the world makes

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: you incredibly special,

Carmen: Hey everyone, this is Carmen Durvad and I will be hosting today's episode of Behind the Founders. Joining me here today is Eric Gross. Eric, welcome. Can you introduce yourself?

Erik Gross: Yeah, absolutely. Very happy to be here. Yeah, my name is Eric Gross. I am the co founder of the Tech Academy, which is a software developer boot camp that I co founded at the beginning of the boot camp industry way back in twenty thirteen and has helped thousands of people break into tech. And I'm really glad to be here.

Carmen: Great, happy for you to be here as well. So to get us started, could you tell the listeners and audience out there what inspired you to start the Tech Academy?

Erik Gross: Absolutely. Frankly, it was my kid coming home from high school one day and even introducing the whole concept to me. I've been working in tech for a long time, but he came home from high school one day and he had this piece of paper in his hand and he said, Dad, I want to do a developer boot camp. And I said, What the heck is a developer boot camp? Now this is 2013. Now developer boot camps or code schools, they're known by a lot of names, they're a pretty established part of the technology industry. And a lot of people have that's their route into tech, but they were brand new. And handed me this piece of paper, and on it was a flyer for a place in San Francisco called Dev Boot Camp. And it blew my mind. They would take people about three or four months. You'd have to quit your job, you had to do this thing full-time. And you were all in intensive 40, 50, 60 hour weeks learning all the fundamentals and what modern software development teams needed. And at the end of it, they had great job outcomes. And I looked at that and went, huh? Well, this is the intersection of some. very key strengths I have and boom that was it I was all in I'm like we we need one of these in Portland I was living in Portland Oregon at the time but yeah it was my it was my son is the origin story just coming home and saying I want to go to a developer boot camp I'm like I have no idea what that is show me

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: that piece of paper

Carmen: Okay. Okay. Lovely. How old is your son?

Erik Gross: one eight now? Yeah.

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: This this is a while. It was twenty th it was like around March of twenty thirteen. I I won't forget it because it was

Carmen: Yeah. Of course.

Erik Gross: changed the trajectory of my life. I'll tell you that.

Carmen: okay. That's amazing. I think that's such a beautiful and also like a really personalized element to the story of how the tech academy got brought to life, right? I mean, yeah, just out of curiosity, what is your son doing right now? Is he like now an engineer or programmer? What was he currently doing

Erik Gross: It's

Carmen: now?

Erik Gross: I was just talking to some friends about this the other day because I was on the phone with him and

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: he said, You know that book that you and Jack wrote? Jack is my co-founder at the Tech Academy.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: He said, You know that book you wrote? We wrote a book called You Are Not Stupid, Computers and Technology Simplified. And it's a really good book, if I do say so myself. And it does in fact remove all the mystery and confusion from computers and technology, right? He says, I finally finished reading that about a year and a half ago. He says, It it changed everything. But here's the thing, he's not working in tech. He

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: and a really good friend moved into of all things fire, water, damage, restoration, and working in crawl spaces. This

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: whole that like I did a lot of jobs earlier in my career that were very like hands-on and full of labor. Now I just type on a computer every day. But no, he went the whole other way. And he they're doing great working in essentially restoration of all things. But

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: You can't run a business without needing to use technology. And so he dr he draws on all of that.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, just to come back to like the, you know, the essence or the story of the boot camp, right? I've heard a lot about these different, you know, coding boot camps. I've had some friends who've also taken part in those boot camps as well, because obviously right now with with tech, with engineering, with AI being really a hot topic and being the the other day I was talking to another speaker about it. It's be it's becoming the new Microsoft. MS tools, right? Like everybody's gotta learn, everybody needs to be equipped with it in order to be

Erik Gross: Mm-hmm.

Carmen: stay informed and updated, right? In this day and age as well. So what would you say makes Tech Academy very unique in comparison to other boot camps, coding boot camps?

Erik Gross: You I appreciate the question and it's interesting. My answer prior to about three and a half years ago would have been subtly different, but you're so right about AI. And just by the way, to put it in perspective, or at least my perspective, I've been programming since I was 11 and I've

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: seen pretty significant changes happen along the way. I mean, obviously the technology industry changes all the time, but I mean really big things. The advent of the web was a massive change, not just in the technology industry. But culture worldwide, right? But there's nothing that compares to AI. The sheer magnitude of it and its impact both in the technology

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: industry and a society. We've never seen anything like this before. And the reason I say my answer would have been different a few years ago is this. What makes us different is what makes me different. I've had a pretty good career in tech, and it isn't because I'm smart. I I'm I'm not I'm not stupid, but I'm not the smartest guy in the room usually. What I do have is a very solid understanding of the fundamentals of computers. And the full story of how that came about is probably longer than we've got time for in this podcast. But I'll I'll tell you what it comes down to is that starting down at the actual physical building block of a computer, the silicon that's used to create a thing called the transistor, which is the core bedrock of how can you with a physical machine. Indicate the difference between yes and no, true and false, one and zero. How do you do that on a physical level? Going all the way up to how the central processing unit works and all the communication with other parts of the internals of the computer. And then moving up into what do the instructions look like that you feed into this machine? How do you organize them? What at its essence is a program? Like all of those got laid in, those fundamentals got laid in very early in my young adult and adult life. And because of that, This incredible rate of change that we talked about in technology has never intimidated me. I've been able to take whatever the industry throws at me or any new area that I want to dive into and master and just fall back on those fundamentals.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: And to bring it, bring the question all the way back to the beginning, the reason that the Tech Academy is different and why it actually sets people up really well for the age of AI is that everything about that, that concentration on fundamentals and how to apply them in the real world. That's baked into the curriculum and the teaching methodology.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: For example, on day one in most boot camps, they actually start you writing programs, you're writing code, which is, from a teacher's point of view, an incredible mistake. One I've made before. And what we found is that if you're writing code and writing out this language that you don't quite understand yet, without the understanding of what happens when I hit run, what

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: happens to those words? How do they make this machine do anything? If you lack all that fundamental understanding, it makes it really hard to make computer programming your own, to understand the different parts of a computer language. And so, rather long-winded answer, but it matters a lot to me. I'm passionate about this stuff.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: What makes it different is that we start with the actual essential fundamentals of the subject, and we don't move on until someone understands those. So by the time you get to the point where you're writing actual programs, you're like click, click, click, this all makes sense. When I type something in, I actually know what's gonna happen inside the computer, even though I can't look inside there and see it because the pieces are so small. I know what's gonna happen inside there. So

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: and there's more I could say about that in terms of how it relates to AI, but that's why. That's why it's different.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah. I like how you break it down that sometimes in a way the first thing that came to my mind is that it's like learning a new language as well, really. And also like understanding like the architecture and the structure of how the ins and outs of how a program or a computer or everything like that works as well. so Eric, tell me a little bit more about the program and the academy. How many schools do you currently have running? How many people are enrolled? tell me a little bit about that.

Erik Gross: Yeah, absolutely.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: Well, it's interesting is it's fully online now. When we started, we were one little tiny room in a business incubator in a suburb of Portland, Oregon, and it was me and a part-time assistant. And it grew to one point right before COVID where we had five different campuses. And we had about a about a 60 40 split. 60% of the students would go into a campus, 40% would do online, and then COVID hit, and everything changed.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Just change everything. Yeah.

Erik Gross: Yeah. We closed all the campuses because people couldn't come in, except for our Portland headquarters. And we survived COVID, which is a a a story in and of itself. But what we found was really interesting is that even after COVID restrictions lifted, people could come into the campus, they didn't. Culture had changed. The idea of doing whatever your professional activity is, whether it's professional work or being a professional student, the the idea of doing that remotely. Had shifted in society and people were fine with it. And we got very good at delivering a self-paced boot camp online. We

Carmen: Okay. Cool.

Erik Gross: had to. We were already decent at it. Like I said, 40% of our students were doing it online with great outcomes. But when 100% of your students have to operate from home on their laptop or their desktop, you get really good at being totally on top of where students are. Catching any, you know, any confusions or upset as quickly as possible and handling them. You know, that whole the interactive experience, you have to get really good at that online. And

Carmen: Absolutely.

Erik Gross: so right now, I I think we've we've it's about 2100 graduates over a little more than a decade. And a job placement rate is it's always been you don't quote me, I don't have to, you talk to my ops officer, but it's always been north of 85 to you know to 87%. So the outcomes are great. But it's a lot of work. You're

Carmen: Absolutely.

Erik Gross: cramming a couple of years of education into

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: about three to seven months, depending upon which program you take. You're working really hard for that time period, but

Carmen: absolutely. Yeah.

Erik Gross: you're also kickstarting your tech career.

Carmen: Yeah, absolutely for sure. I think that's yeah, that's really the thing with boot campus that it is usually very intense as well because the idea is that they really have maximized opportunities as well. So I'd be curious to know a little bit about the types of students that you have coming into the school. how old are they and do you know what they're doing post tech academy program in terms of like statistics and so on.

Erik Gross: Yeah, we get really nerdy about this kind of thing. Cause I'll tell you

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: what, it we saw a pattern within the first year that we were were very surprised by.

Carmen: Okay, yeah. Okay.

Erik Gross: The the first few students were in general between twenty five and thirty-five, had limited experience with white collar work, you know, maybe some administrative kind of work. A lot of them were, you know, just out of school and took whatever job they could, you know, in barista or some kind of administrative work, right? But what we found over that first year is we started to see a lot of students who were already mid-career and wanted a significant career change. I remember one of the first ones that really hit me was a plumber who had been doing it for about 12 or 13 years and was making $60 $70,000 a year as a plumber. This is, you know, a decade ago.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: That went a little bit farther. But he saw the writing on the wall that one, he wasn't enjoying it as much as he used to. And two, He looked at people who were in his same field who were in their 50s and 60s and still working and all the physical problems they had and went, I want none of that, and decided to break into tech. And so by that point, we had enough track record of seeing what kind of earning potential people had when they got out of the school to know that the average wage at that point was around 60,000 a year. And he went, So worst case if I apply myself and do well. I'm just gonna making the same amount of money, but doing something new, sign me up.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: And so we start to see a lot more of that. You know, I think the oldest student we've ever had get, you know, go through the program is 72 and absolutely

Carmen: okay.

Erik Gross: like blow away fantastic, like whole new chapter of his life and loved it. Right. And the youngest is 18 because we're not allowed to train anybody under under 18. So it's really all over the map, honestly.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: And I love that. And but this I know this isn't part of what you asked, but. It's just something that that I'm passionate about. Technology needs an incredible variety of people practicing it to represent the panoply, the you know, broad rainbow awesomeness that is mankind. And when it's all centered around one or two core demographics, you're only making software for those demographics. You're only thinking

Carmen: That's true.

Erik Gross: the way those demographics think. You're only seeing a worldview that those demographics have. And that leads one to bad software. It doesn't serve the broad population. And and two, you can make really good money in this career. And I want that for everyone who has an aptitude for it. So I'm

Carmen: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Erik Gross: really happy with how varied the student body has been.

Carmen: Yeah, absolutely for sure. And I think it's also important that especially because it is surrounding us, right? With the tech and AI and everything like that, it should be made accessible for different varieties of groups and demographic as well, and also for people to have another chance to do a very pivotal change in their career. And I think You know, a lot of the times when you go into the job market, there's always this catch 22 where you're like, well, what if I want a career change? I want to go into marketing or I want to go into programming, but there's always the cycle of, well, you need experience to be able to get a foot in the door. So I think in

Erik Gross: I don't know.

Carmen: a way, to be able to have this boot camp really provides like a very good foundation for them to land better chances as well to be able to go into the the world of tech or the world of programming as well. So I think what you're doing, it's definitely very exciting. I can see that you're really passionate about it too. yeah, so Eric, I would like to switch a different topic because I do want to make sure that you know we are able to just give as much awareness and exposure what you've been working. So you did mention that you have been working on a book. So tell the listeners a little bit about your book.

Erik Gross: So excited.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: It okay. So I mentioned that I do have I did have a rather I've had an interesting career. I didn't actually start programming professionally, like

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: people paying me money to do it, until 2011. And at the time, I was not doing that great in life. I was making like $38,000 a year. I jumped from job to job. I really wasn't doing that great. And a good friend pulled me aside and had a very strongly worded heart to heart with me and kind of woke me up a little bit. A few months later, Jack, who ended up being the co-founder of the Tech Academy, although we had no idea at the time, took enough, you know, enough care or had enough care for me to take the time to to sit down and say, like, what are you gonna do? Like you're not doing great career-wise, and it affects every aspect of your life.

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: And we were just brainstorming one day on a drive. And I he said, like, what are your options? I suddenly remembered, well, I was in the Navy for six years. I was a nuclear reactor operator and electronics technician, which means I have what's called the GI Bill, which gives you education benefits. And I wasn't certain whether they were still valid, whether enough, you know, too much time had gone by. He said, so you can go back to school. I said, Yeah. He said, What would you study? And instantly I didn't even think about it. I said, computer programming. And he He looked at me like, well, why that? Because at that point he had no idea what my point of view was about tech or any experience I had. And I told him the whole story. That I've been programming since I was 11, that the Navy gave me unbelievable training on every aspect of digital computers and programming. And then in every job I'd ever had, I became the tech guy. And he's he's just looking at me like he's like Why the heck aren't you working in tech? And I had no good answer. I had no good answer.

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: So to make a long story short, and it's leading up to this why I wrote this book, I managed to get a hold of a mutual friend, because Jack helped me, who was working in tech, found out I knew a lot more than I thought I did, or that I was really keeping track of. And he said, if you will burn the midnight oil for months, I'll tell you what to study and how to get, you know, you might be able to break into this thing. So I said, All right, I'll do that. Three weeks later, I landed my first genuine paying tech job for $84,000 a year.

Carmen: Hmm. Wow.

Erik Gross: I gave myself over a 50% raise in three weeks, and it changed my life. Yeah.

Carmen: Definitely for sure. I can imagine. Wow, yeah.

Erik Gross: And then you move forward a couple of years, and I cook, you know, co-founded the Tech Academy, and Jack and I have since, you know, co-authored 10 different technology books and you know, I worked like I've had a really successful career. But to get back to this book, the reason why. You know, with a with the perspective of several years to look back on it, is because there were four really vital things that I already had that I didn't realize were so valuable or vital. And I've wanted to write a book about this for a long time. And so I've written The Uncommon Engineer, The Art of Being Wrong for Fun and Profit.

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: And it really comes down to four different things. It's understanding the value of a true fundamental, something that underlies every aspect of these machines. And how to apply them. And it involves an unbelievable approach to learning system design that was hammered into me in the Navy in an incredibly challenging way that was super effective in a desert in the middle of Idaho, by the way, which is a really wild story. Yes, there's a desert in the there's sorry,

Carmen: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Erik Gross: there's there's an actual submarine in the desert in the middle of Idaho, and that's where I got my training. And so there's an approach to learning systems thinking that's super powerful. And then there's an approach to diagnosing a fault in a complex system that again, the Navy hammered into me that I'd been using for a long time and didn't know it. And then along the way, I'd picked up techniques for like generating ideas when I needed them. And finally, I don't know where this came from, probably a lot of help from my mom and dad, but I've always been very comfortable with finding out I was wrong about something. I don't get been out of shape about it. I don't get offended. I view it as an unbelievable gift. The moment you find out that you're wrong about something, especially something important to you or that you do for a living, the moment you find out you're wrong about something central and you can approach with some humility, you correct it. And from that moment forward, you've increased your entire value as a professional. Everything you do is that much better. I don't always do that. It's not that fun to find out you're wrong about stuff. But I

Carmen: Yeah, it can be

Erik Gross: took, I took all these this this learning. and how to apply it to practical, real architectural and engineering work and put it into a book. And that that that that I'm so excited about that. It comes out in about a month, month and a half.

Carmen: Wow.

Erik Gross: And yeah, it it kind of been consuming my life recently.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah, that's very exciting. And also like again, like congratulations for that. And you should definitely, you know, share the link with us so that we're able to support and help you to promote. And for the listeners and audience who are, you know, curious to learn more, to have access to check out your book as well. So we'll definitely include those links in the description box too. You know, Eric, one thing that I've noticed that I wanted to like point out is how the importance of really Surrounding yourself with the right people in your life to pull you into those pivotal moments, right? Like for an example, when you

Erik Gross: Yeah, yeah.

Carmen: mentioned about starting your business with tech academy, that was because of your son who came to you. And then also that pivotal moment of your career into tech, that was your friend as well. So it is true

Erik Gross: Mm-hmm.

Carmen: what they say that like your network is your net worth as well. And it's really inspiring that. You are surrounded by really good people in your life who would kind of direct you and inspire you to build the path where you are today.

Erik Gross: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And there's th there's a a beautiful story I want to tell that really just paints that whole picture, you know, pretty clearly. There was a time about a month and a half, two months into building the school, the Tech Academy, where I really had to bump up against what I was good at and what I really wasn't. And I've always I've always been really good at teaching and obviously a really strong, you know, knowledge of of engineering and architecture and software programming, but what I wasn't really good at was establishing a business, laying down policies and procedures, hiring, administration, being an executive, growing, handling all the legal, you know, rudiments, all that kind of stuff. And it was starting to become clear that this thing had legs. I was signing up students. I was also working full time at the time and having to do all of this in the evenings and weekends. And I recognized this dream's gotten a hold of me. I really love what this could become, but there's no way I can do it alone. And so I looked around my network, which is, as you said, you're right, it's your net worth. And there was really only one answer, and it was Jack. I'd seen what he'd done in building up organizations. They were in different domains that had nothing to do with tech, but I knew enough to know that that isn't the skill set. It's not the technology skill set. It's everything surrounding a business that revolves around teaching technology. And so I went to Jack and he he was making a hundred thousand dollars a year at a really good job. And he wasn't in technology at the time. And so he's like, I don't know, Eric. Like, what you're doing sounds cool, but I've got a pretty good gig over here. And then he looked at it more and went, okay, I really do like it, but you're gonna have to match what I've already got. And I was a brand new startup. I

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: had five or six students signed up. The idea of like jumping on board and saying, Okay, I'll give you a hundred thousand dollars a year and there's gonna be a company car and a cell phone because that's what you've got where you are. I had to sit with that for a couple of days. But I had to be honest with myself. Like, I am not the guy to do this. I need that second person who balances my weaknesses. And so I did it. And it was one of the smartest things I've ever done in my life. He

Carmen: Means

Erik Gross: was absolutely the right guy for it. And much of the reason that we've been able to help so many people break into tech is because. I was willing to acknowledge where I wasn't strong and find the right person who shared the same goal and would say, okay, you've got that stuff over there. He says, Eric, there's I'll never know what you know about technology. I'm gonna work hard. And he's an amazing architect and engineer now. Okay. But I've got this strength over here, and I

Carmen: Hmm.

Erik Gross: know you don't have that. So let's get together. So you're absolutely right. I think it's a real important lesson for a founder. Some of us just want to do it all. Or we don't trust other people with certain key aspects of the business. No, you'll never build anything big or worthwhile or that like gets your achieves your mission, your passion all by yourself. There's this myth floating around the internet, especially in the age of I AI, the one person billion dollar company.

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: That sounds boring and

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: probably not gonna succeed.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it's really those are really like insightful things that you mentioned there, right? It's sometimes it's really hard to acknowledge or confront, I would say, your strengths and the things that you're not particularly good at. I'm really usually really careful to use words like weaknesses or so on and so off, right? But to really like reflect on what ki kind of What can you provide in terms of input and what do you need help with? Right. And I think it really comes down to having those honest conversations to be able to really move forward and to really build what your your your mission would be, right? And then that also comes into the fact that, you know, you you don't have to do these things alone. That sometimes, you know, coming together, working as a team is really what makes things more sustainable in the long run as well. So I think it is so it is so is such a powerful reminder for the listeners out there to really like reflect and assess okay what do I need help with? What can I do? And then also know that, you know, it takes a good team to there's a cliche, you know, like teamwork makes the dream work as well, to really to be able to make things happen as well. So let's dive a little bit into the support that you have. So it's currently in the tech academy, it's you and Jack as co-founder. Do you have also any other additional support who is like okay, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that. What are the main

Erik Gross: yeah, we've got like forty or forty five employees. Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen: roles and the functions and everything like that? And how did you find them?

Erik Gross: So there's a real interesting story here that actually aligns really strongly with what you do,

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: which is that. One, functions. Well, you've got to have all the you know, communication functions and all that kind of stuff, you know, monitoring administration and taking care of staff needs and all that, the communication aspects, right? And written policy for everything, et cetera. but then you've also got to handle, you know, sales and registration, admission, everything there. And then you gotta ha handle all the financial matters in the company, you know, you know, income, outgo, all that kind of thing. And then there's the actual delivery. What do you do? Well We deliver training and we do it online, right? But then you've also gotta have, and this is critical, a s department separate from the place where the actual work is done that checks the quality of the work. And it cannot be the same person or the same department. It must be someone else, just like you see on an engineering team, which is that one developer should never test his or her work. It's there's all they should while they're doing the development. But once they say it's done. Someone else who wasn't involved has to test it. And finally, you have to have some sort of public outreach, interaction with both your alumni network and brand new people and introductory services that will give them a taste of what you are. So those are like the sort of broad divisions we would have inside the company, right? In terms of where we find those people, well, we've had we've got a few core employees that have been with us eight, nine, ten, eleven years, and considering we were formally founded at the beginning of 2014. Someone who's been there for 11 years. They've been there a long time. They you

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: know they've got a lot of travel knowledge. But the vast majority of our employees, even our instructors, are overseas. We we we've we've for the last two and a half years, we've made great use of overseas specialists to to to great effect. We have a few advantages, especially when it comes to the to the technology aspects, Which is that we're a tech school. So if we find someone that you know has most of what we're looking for, but a couple of holes in their education, we can fill that hole. We have all the training already. And they can just go through the training and

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: we make them even stronger as an engineer, a programmer. But for every other role, we had always had from almost the very beginning written job descriptions for every single role. And An apprenticeship program for every single role. This is a common mistake. If there's some advice I can give to founders out there, Care enough about your new employees to give them the best possible chance at a win in the role. And one key element to that is one, written policy, not verbal. It's got to be written down. They have to have something they can refer to. And two, have them shadow an apprentice over someone that already knows what they're doing really well in that role. Even if it's the beginning, that's you. And that's hard to do. You're so busy as a founder. But Jack and I learned the hard way. That if you don't want, if you're gonna hand off part of what you've been doing expertly to someone else, you have to give all of it to them. Everything about how you think and how you make decisions along the way and what the policy is and how to actually do it, or it'll come right back to you. Any tiny element of what that job role entails that you didn't cover and make absolutely sure with your own eyes they could do, it'll come back in a week or a month. or year and bites you in the in the behind. So those are some of the things that we've we've done is a logical division of the organization and written policy, along with an apprenticeship program. So when someone finally takes the job on, that their day one is a month or two after they've started and they feel very confident they can do the job. And because of that, our the organization runs really, really well.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: And we have longevity. People have said many times to us that they haven't worked at a place where they're so empowered to be able to actually do the job well.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: And it avoids the anxiety of I arrived last week, and now this week I'm suddenly being expected to do the whole job, and I don't even understand the full job yet. Don't do that to people. You

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Erik Gross: wouldn't want that. Don't do it to other people.

Carmen: Yeah, for sure. I like what you mentioned, right? I think the the idea of empowering people when it comes to when it comes to also like ensuring that they really feel motivated to stay there long term and show long-term retention,

Erik Gross: Mm-hmm.

Carmen: that sometimes it does require that at the beginning of the time to really make yourself time and space to provide all the necessary resources and training to ensure that they're really on board, they know what they're doing, their role is really defined,

Erik Gross: yeah.

Carmen: responsibility is really defined as well. and I I can not I can notice that, you know, it that's what really makes an organization or company really stand out is really good leadership, really good full on resources as well and full on training and everything like that. So that's really, really powerful stuff. And I I can see that. Part of it is also the passion, part of it is also the commitment, the capacity to ensure that everybody feels on board as well. so just out of curiosity, you said that a lot of them are internationally remote working remotely on board. Where are they all based? The Philippines. Okay, okay, nice. And how is it

Erik Gross: Yeah. The Philippines. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Carmen: with the time zones and everything like that? How do you manage that?

Erik Gross: It's really great. When there's back lines, administrative stuff that can happen overnight, then

Carmen: Uh-huh.

Erik Gross: those folks just work according to their local schedule.

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: And everybody else that needs to, you know, service people during the regular American workday, they just flip for the most part. You know, it it it it's worked out really, really well. I

Carmen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erik Gross: I I think in a way it might be good that it's almost a direct twelve hour difference, roughly, you know, a

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: full half day. So they can just choose, Am I gonna switch and become a night owl?

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: Right. or am I gonna, you know, stay working during my regular day. But

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: we also we do a couple of things. One, we're really picky about who we choose. But

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: two, we've put together our own internal training

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: on, you know, improving your English as a second language skills or, you know, Americanisms.

Carmen: Right.

Erik Gross: It's the wildest thing. There's so many things that we just these idioms that we'll use and that just drop out of your mouth and you don't even think twice about them. 'Cause it's just part of the American culture or entertainment. And and we found that if we didn't clear those kind of things up, especially

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: as they relate to the technology industry, right? But just in general. So we we we put people through training on that kind of stuff too. Cause otherwise someone's gonna drop something that's confusing in the middle of a meeting. And from that moment forward, that poor employee is just hung up on like, I don't know what that means. And they're not paying attention after that, you know? Yeah.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely for sure. Definitely good that, you know, it's also about implementing the I would say like the intercultural competence or, you know, the cultural nuances that come with that as well, you know, that can also be overlooked. And I think it seems that you really put in a lot of thought into that as well. It's not just the technical aspect, but also like the the the work culture aspect as well.

Erik Gross: Yeah, we've we've tried.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I'd love to know, like right now, if I were to say, okay, currently in your team operational aspect, if there was something right now where you're like, okay, I still feel like there is a little bit of I would say challenges, you know, things are done manually,

Erik Gross: Yeah.

Carmen: and I would love to hand it over to someone to take that load off my plate, what would it be?

Erik Gross: You know, this is an area we attack almost by default because of being engineers is there is an acronym in the technology industry called DRI DRY. It means don't repeat yourself.

Carmen: Okay. Okay.

Erik Gross: And it really is the essential, you know, concept is just never do the same thing manually twice.

Carmen: Yeah, yeah.

Erik Gross: always write a script to do it if you're gonna need to do it more than once. And a lot of that culture or that attitude moves into our organization. So in terms of like manual processes that are being done that way, there isn't anything that comes immediately to mind, but I'll I'll tell you the one thing and it's probably a universal thing. Founders this is my reality. Your reality may be different. We rarely think about marketing when we want to find, you know, found a company. We've got the core product or service

Carmen: No.

Erik Gross: that keeps us up at night, not in a bad way, in a good way, because we're so passionate about it. It's

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: that expertise that we have perfected and

Carmen: Mm.

Erik Gross: that service or delivery to the world that we want to provide. But making yourself known to the world

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: and to the right segment of that world, that is the right person for your product or service, it's not something that. We think about that much when we found a company.

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Erik Gross: But it's the secret.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: It's everything. You have the best product in the world. But if I won't say if no one knows about it, it's more precise. If the right people don't know about it, at

Carmen: Okay.

Erik Gross: the right moment for them, you're dead in the water. So that's an area where, like, and Jack and I have worked really hard to try to learn as much as we can about that area. But one, it's the constantly shifting area, right?

Carmen: Absolutely.

Erik Gross: And but and two, it's it's a specialized skill, just like computer programming is. So that's the thing

Carmen: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

Erik Gross: I think of right off the bat.

Carmen: Okay. Yeah. No, absolutely for sure. Right. Because it's like that's also something that a common theme that I hear when I have conversations with different founders is that a lot of them, you know, especially like when they're small, mid-sized companies, their challenge is that they have a really great service that they want to offer to the world or to help people. But It's about making yourself known, right? Bringing awareness and

Erik Gross: Mm-hmm.

Carmen: having that exposure as well. So I do hear that a lot. And I think it is something that's also really often overlooked that, you know, it is also important to have people to be able to help you to make yourself known or bring bring, you know, what you've been working on to life as well. so definitely for sure. Okay. Eric, just I know that we've already briefly discussed a few of your reflections, takeaways, insights for people considering to start a business. But is there anything else that you would love to share to the listeners out there, whether it's your personal reflections, journeys, and challenges that are worth noting?

Erik Gross: Yeah, absolutely. There's just one thing. W th again, it's my reality, your mileage may vary. External factors are not the reason you're gonna fail. There is no external factor that will ever be the reason why, if you have this idea you're passionate about bringing to the world, it will never be the reason why it failed. It will always be an internal reason.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: And almost always it is your personal estimation of your own ability. And I I first started to learn this when I did a lot of technology career coaching. helping engineers and architects to move up in their career. It was never, never, the reason for them not doing well was never a technical one. It was it was never, I need to learn this new framework or this new language or this new, you know, flash in the pan. Everybody's talking about it, you know, element of the technology industry. It was never that. It was always that their viewpoint of themselves was not as big As the role or career position they wanted.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: It's always an internal factor. And as much as I've talked about like some of the recognition of like, hey, where am I? You know, pros and cons. We don't have to use the word weakness, right? But and while it's important to recognize those areas where you may not be as strong, it's also, I think, infinitely more important to Always say wonderful things about you to you. You should be your best friend in going through this entrepreneurial journey.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: Because believe me, there will be internal thoughts that are directly opposite to that about

Carmen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: how much you suck or your idea is gonna fail, it'll never come to market, the

Carmen: Yeah. Yeah.

Erik Gross: price isn't justified. Is it really gonna help people? Like The list could be infinite because the list is infinite. There's an infinite number of ways that your mind will try to tell you that this is not gonna work. And yeah,

Carmen: yeah, that's hard. That's the tough part. Yeah.

Erik Gross: the moment you agree with any of them, you have stopped yourself without anybody else needing to do a thing.

Carmen: Mm-hmm.

Erik Gross: So for anybody going through this entrepreneurial journey, this founder's journey, that's where I think some of the most valuable work can be done is treating yourself kindly. The very fact that you had this idea and you cared enough to even try to start something and launch it into the world makes

Carmen: Yeah.

Erik Gross: you incredibly special, very rare, and really valuable. So if anyone, especially you, tries to say anything different than that, don't listen to them. It's just not true. So that's how I feel about that.

Carmen: Yeah, no, I love that. I think it just reminded me of a book that I read. I forgot the name of the book, but it's more of like, you know, how do you talk to yourself, right? How do you treat yourself? And then they basically what they do is they would say, Okay, how would you if your friend or loved one was struggling, how do you speak to them, you know? how do you treat them? And then Flip the script. Do you do the same thing to yourself? Most likely, probably

Erik Gross: Yep.

Carmen: not. We tend to be really harsh on ourselves as well. We tend to be our harshest critics. And I think it

Erik Gross: Hundred percent.

Carmen: it does play a part in terms of like having that overcoming or building emotional resilience when it comes to confronting doubts or hesitations or reservations as well. So I think that's definitely a very powerful reminder to for anyone, whether it's Entrepreneurs who've been there for a long time were thinking of starting that for them to take away as well. So thanks so much again, Eric, for coming on to have share this refreshing perspective too. So having said that, thanks again for coming on to this episode. This is Behind the Founders. Be sure to stay tuned for the next episode.