Building a Healthcare Business in the Age of AI- Iain Cahill's Journey

speaker-0: in my own 25 years working with SME businesses, I could see there's clearly a gap. between what large organizations get and what SME owners believe they can have. So we've been trying to sort of bridge that gap.

speaker-1: Hey everyone. My name is Carmen Durvat and I will be hosting today's episode of Behind the Founders. Joining me today is Ian Cajill. Ian, welcome. Can you introduce yourself?

speaker-0: Yeah, thank you very much, Carmen. Yes, Ian Cahell is my name. I would be founder of a healthcare platform called GWorlds Health. And also we're about to launch a new digital healthcare platform called Visca Care.

speaker-1: Great. Thank you so much for the lovely introduction as well. So to get us started, can you share with the listeners out there what exactly does Jewart's Health do?

speaker-0: Yeah, so we we started twenty nineteen, we had a vision for the business. there's a model that we have which is think like Apple, not like somebody who sells apples. And so we choose it because Apple's probably the most productive per capita company, certainly in Ireland. They've announced the things of five point nine million dollars per employee in Ireland. but they also outsource about eighty percent of what they do, which is for us a huge model. And we'll talk about Cherry assist in the process of this at some stage with the outsourcing piece. the idea was to try could we bring corporate grade solutions into SME businesses? So, how do we give SME business owners the opportunity to compete against and with large organizations? So that was the background to what we set it out. in my own 25 years in corporate finance, accounting, taxation, and working with SME businesses, I could see there's clearly a gap. between what large organizations get and what SME owners believe they can have. So we've been trying to sort of bridge that gap. About four years ago, we were working with a client and the idea around employees came up. How do we retain them? How do we reward them? How do we recruit them? And again, back to this ethos around large corporations, you know, if you give everybody free pizza and, you know, ping pong tables and all of the the twenty eight different benefits you get. You've obviously got a better chance of of recruiting people. but if you're an SME or a medium-sized business owner, of course, you have limitations around wallet share, how much you can be able to give away. And I said, look, the biggest thing that's changing the world right now is healthcare. It's becoming more difficult for people to access, it's becoming more expensive for people to be able to hold on to. And the model around healthcare is sort of it's based around a nineteen fifties model of postcode healthcare. You know, the closer I am to my GP, the more chance I have of getting a GP appointment. if you live in Ireland or if you live in the UK, and I don't think it's just peculiar to that, because I know Carmen, you and I spoke about your your your Germanic background and the challenges you faced in Germany. The reality is is that the notion about postcode healthcare is phenomenally broken. Not enough GPs to service a growing population, not enough centers being open, particularly for the international communities that are now becoming more tra apparent. As I say in Ireland particular, you know, 20% of our population has grown out of international diaspora in the last four to five years. So we looked at healthcare differently and said if we start digitizing the journey, if we start figuring out what a digital healthcare centre could look like and be able to provide, then maybe we could be part of a solution process. So Gewardz started as a B2B platform. How do we make it easier for companies to retain, reward, recruit employees using healthcare and particularly getting access to GP appointments for employees and their families because the crisis is never about me, it's about my child. You know, if a child child wakes up with a sore finger, sore throat, we'll do anything we can to get them an appointment quickly. We'll suffer as parents, which is what we're known to do. So that uniqueness allowed us to carve a bit of a niche in the Irish marketplace. We were the only provider of GP access for employees and family members for people who for companies who didn't or couldn't afford health insurance. And if we fast forward then to the end of twenty twenty five. We kept getting asked the question by the the you know, by the ordinary public going, Well, if you can give the access to employees, why can't we get access to it? So we said, Okay, there's a challenge we'd like to have it go at. the reason why we called it Visca is that nobody knows how to pronounce or spell G words. So we recognize that we get caught up in a wrong branding. I know you did query that when we first spoke. So you know, G words are slightly Germanic, but nobody knows how to pronounce it and therefore how to spell it. And so There's nothing worse than hearing a name and not being able to trace it on it.

speaker-1: Correctly, yeah, I think.

speaker-0: So so I I had to park my ego a little bit. and also Visca is Catalan for Live Wells. So there is a tie in to healthcare as a consequence. so after this last six months, we've been trying to figure out, articulate and grow this concept around what a digital digital healthcare centre could actually look like. So if we bring in the ability to get access to, you know, the the primary care around GPs and doctors when we need them, then that's a core piece we have. And we're we're thankful in that we've been supported by our clinical digital health providers in Health Europe. Second thing then is, you know, people use Dr. Google. It's become the air apparent in terms of where things go to. So we said, look, why don't we embrace it and not fight it? So we've created our own digital companion called Maya or Maya, depending on where you come from. either way, that's spelled I A, so that's a bit easier than G words. and her job is I can go to her for guidance. And and interestingly, a friend of mine rang me to say that they were facing a health challenge and I was able to go into our own app and go, I wonder what that actually means and get a whole guidance about what it was, how it's treatable. And you go, Okay, that's not as bad as it sounded. but it's not just about that, it's the fact that we've connected your wearables. So, you know, if you're health conscious and interested in health, we all do our ten thousand steps, the goal the world has set us. you know, we track our sleep a little bit, we track our heart rates. So if we're tracking all this data anyway, and if we're using, you know, AI technology for health guidance, if we embrace that, but also bring in the people, the the human in the center, the the clinician who sees all this information in parallel with you, then the quality of what you should get from clinical advice should get better. Now, we don't advise our our our Maya is not a di a clinician. Her job isn't to diagnose, but she is part of the guidance that people look and see for right now and what's happening. and then we're expanding it with, you know, digital partners that are medical grade, stuff that we know we need but don't know how to get. So if we can become that guidance education, but also access, now all of a sudden you put the patient in the center of healthcare, not on the periphery. And what I mean by that is right now my healthcare records are held by my G my GP. If he res if he retires, resigns, or I move, I lose pretty much track of that data. I've got 10 years of blood tests and emails, but one liners go, there you go. But I don't know if I'm getting any better or worse because there's no connectivity. Healthcare is almost like discontinuous transaction. and then secondly, if I'm able to bring that with me, so I might be traveling for leisure or business or relocation, if I've now got a digital use of my medical records, I now control those conversations when I change. And I know I mean you've you're somebody who lives that global mobility journey yourself, Carmen. So you you and I again have spoken briefly about the journey for where you got. So I know I've spoken an awful lot, but you know, for me, I see it from three points of view. Personally, you know, I I'm I'm A person of a certain age, as they say. So healthcare for me becomes more pertinent as you get to mid fifties, which is where I am. my kids range from twenty-four down to fifteen. So they're in that phase where they've left home moving into the big city, but no idea what a healthcare infrastructure likes to support them unless they come home. And if they're working nine to five in Dublin, we're too far away for GP appointments. So now you lose time and lose work. and then secondly, you know, we're at that age where thankfully we've got elderly parents who are alive and relatively healthy, but there's a caring episode will start to happen. So how do we help that caring journey if we need to be able to do it? And so that infrastructure supports my twenty-something children, me of a certain age, and then also the infrastructure to support the caring of of the you know your your relations as you need to be involved in that. So that's stitching it all together for where we think healthcare should be, as opposed to where it is today. And then secondly, if we can be at the forefront of where healthcare is going to, then I think we can help be quite supportive for what I call the international, the global mobility marketplace. The likes of yourselves who, you know, might be in one country today, another country tomorrow, but healthcare s needs to travel, not get stuck at borders or not get stuck at towns. That for me is a gap.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely for sure. And also something that just really came up to my mind is the fact that healthcare, it is crazy that nowadays, especially because of globalization, put people moving around a lot, that healthcare accessibility is just be very complex. It's very it's it's it's very difficult when in reality healthcare is supposed to be a fundamental need or a fundamental right. It shouldn't be seen as a luxury. But unfortunately it nowadays The system is structured in such a way that, you know, only certain people are able to have access, you know. So I think what you're doing is definitely very, very, very meaningful. And it's definitely going to be something that's more universal, as you mentioned, you pointed out the different the the different demographic groups that you're targeting as well. so Ian, I'm I'm just curious to understand a little bit more about your journey and life before. you started Jewards and then Visiska Care and all of that. So tell me a little bit about your your journey before you ended up starting Jewards.

speaker-0: Yeah, well, I I I've the many headed Hydra of the entrepreneur, Carmen, sort of really gets inside in that. And then I can go back to, you know, they say every good entrepreneur started life cutting grass and neighbors' grass and stuff. So I would have done that in my early teens. but more importantly, I'd been involved. I I worked for GE Capital and GMAC Bank. So I worked for two of the most, you know, largest corporations, most successful corporations. But in reality I found I wasn't good at politics. I I couldn't play the game. You know, if I got frustrated, I kind of tend to be quite vocal about that. and so when it got to the the financial crisis in twenty twenty ten, where I'd been working for a very large financial services business. I just completed an MBA at a Henley. So they say about an MBA, one of two things happen. You change job or change career. Firstly I changed job and then I got made redundant, which is probably part of corporate life and and unfortunately it's becoming far too common as well. So especially the past few years. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you know, tech is a victim of that in a large way. We've talked about AI and and and the imposition of AI and and I'll talk about the year in that in a second. so when I got made redundant for But would have been the second time actually from a large corporate, I turned around and said, This is not a journey I want to go on again. you know, I had a young family at that stage. and I just said, Look, the problem with hitching your wagon to corporates is that you are a number. You are you know, you can toff your cap and say all those things and put the hard work, but at the end of the day, you know, you literally You know, somebody puts a stroke through a piece of paper and says, You're gone, and all of a sudden you've no control of life. So that was my vow in twenty nine, two thousand and nine, that I wouldn't be dependent on a single source of income ever again. That that, you know, hustle culture would be part of what you do. but also I enjoy the fact that in the entrepreneurship, yes, you've got challenges. You know, as you start a business, it's all of the risk rewards and the how do you feed yourselves and stuff. But also you are in charge of the journey. So I was a qualified accountant and shortly after I qualified, I took a sales role in in GE Capital. And I did it because I know to be accountant. That's debits and credits, and you can do that to this day. And and we do a bit of that in a fractional CFO capacity. But if you want to run a business or you want to be successful, you better know how to sell. And everybody's a salesperson every day. So, you know, everyone talks about As long as I'm not selling them, I don't mind. They go, Well, no matter what conversation you have, you're going to end up there. And I I remember listening to the famous Brian Tracy, and I used to listen to his CDs that he had. So I'm talking C D vintage as opposed to digital audio now at this stage. and I remember him saying that sales is a blank check. It's the only profession that if you're good enough at, you get to decide the terms of and conditions of what you do. And I go, okay. That sounds very appealing. And if you fast forward to where we are today, so I wrote a book in 2009, all around the debt crisis. So I became an author, it's just seemed a natural thing to do. Yeah. but the reason why I migrated into technology is that it's something I wanted to create a legacy for my children. So, you know, I we started G Wars in 2019. What are we six, seven years on that journey now? So my son. Who just qualifies an accountant last week, but he would have been sixteen, seventeen. So I took the opportunity to bring my kids into the office to listen to how a business was trying to get together. Look, we're a we're a micro business. We're we're not even on the radar, but I wanted them just to get the experience of that. So they wouldn't be fearful of talking about business, understanding business, yeah, talking with clients. And so it became a bit of fun. We we launched a travel platform the day the pandemic started. So I wouldn't launch a travel platform in those circumstances with the piece of advice I give to everybody. We we've held that. It's part of the benefits we give to our healthcare members. and it's a lovely product and I've always held on to that. But that ability to be able to create something that can globally influence people is very attractive. The the The alternative for me was continue to be, you know, a private client advising people on on financial services stuff. but that is great in one sense, but not big enough as a vision in another side of it. So hence the entrepreneur and me wouldn't settle down. We say, let's have a go at it. But what I do think is huge, I think what's really happened, the advent of AI has been incredible. And I mean this for entrepreneurs in a big, big way. I mean, obviously it's detrimental if you're in IT and corporates right now or seeing all of the very large numbers of people being let go because of AI and whether that's right or wrong or you know wrongful thinking or rightful thinking, I don't know the answer to that. But if you're a small business or a medium sized business and you want to accelerate what you can do with your business, I think AI is a phenomenal, phenomenal thing to be able to work with. And I I as I say I I advise a few clients and I I do some work with them and I have all of them going. You can now be in control of the digitization of your business. And it's not necessarily that you want to reduce headcount. It's just that you get very, very efficient about how you do things. And we're in the middle of a planning exercise for a company and you've got the employees looking for more staff and you've got me pushing for better digitization so that staff become more productive. And and that's an interesting debate to get in the middle of. And in our own business, you know, the advent of bringing AI in is is huge. I think it's it's phenomenal. I think what we can do with this in terms of helping people, the globalization of what we're trying to do, is is very, very interesting. So I've kind of glossed over my twenty-five career year career only because I'm not sure the relevancy of it. But it's to say that somebody in the fifty in the mid fifties can you know adopt AI and grow those things is huge. And I was at an event last Thursday with Scale Ireland, who would be who would lead the whole charge around AI and and lar you know scaling of of small businesses. And I spoke to a guy who was in his mid sixties and he had a twinkle's eye gone. A year ago I was retiring. He says, Now I own an AI business and he is just absolutely enthralled by it. So if you have faced adversity in terms of being made redundant or something has happened, once you get past the challenges and I say I aware the teacher have been there a couple of times or fully understand the the emotional side of it, actually it's never been a better time to get involved in something you want to do because you now control. the journey in a much, much better way than you could have two or three years ago. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: Yeah, definitely for sure. I think it's definitely a very interesting time or season or era that we're living in, you know, first going through the pandemic. And then now there's of course the introduction of AI as well. And actually, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about, you know, your thoughts on AI. And you kind of did cover a little bit as well. But I think what would be interesting for the listeners to know and understand is obviously right now, you know, with the launch of Visca Care and off of course with GWards Health, you are integrating, you know, you are working on a platform or a digitized for accessibility. I'd love to know from a from an operational perspective, for example, when it comes to support the the people in your team, which parts of your business are you integrating using AI and which parts are still more, I would say, manual?

speaker-0: Yeah, it's I so you could probably reengineer that thought process for a second. and and I'll do it this way. So because I was involved in large organizations that saw adversity in in the two thousand and nine, two thousand and ten financial crash, which is before your generation's time, but very pivotal in our generation's time, I used to sit we used to sit there every month deciding who'd be made redundant as the world got progressively worse. And and it's you know it it's the death by a thousand cuts is not a good place to be in when you're involved in those circumstances. So for me, what the way I approach the business subsequent of that is let's change the way we think about people and understand the outcome we're trying to achieve. So with AI. We can take out an awful lot of the manualization of tedious day to day stuff. And it means that the quality of work we give to our people is exponentially higher. So anybody who, you know, who's still writing letters without using AI input, for example, like th those days are gone. and they should be gone. And I'm not saying that we get lazy. So I mean, I had a I had a girl working with me. For four years and she fought AI and the augmentation of it, except that by the end of it, everything she gave me was AI with absolutely no intervention from herself. Okay. So she she'd pivoted to the place you're gone, they've gone too far. But being challenged by it and reading it and doing it means that the next hires we bring into Visca care, we can pay them more, they can be much more focused, the productivity outcome can be significantly higher. And there is a there's a guy on LinkedIn talks about the billion dollar business with four people. Now you could conceive three, four years ago, there's no way you could run a billion dollar business with four people. The question now is that that that becomes not quite almost achievable, but not far off it. So I think that that if you look at that way Like we'll deliberately we've been I've deliberately probably spent the last two years in build mode where we, you know, push the envelope or do an awful lot of work I shouldn't do. That's why you and I met, because now it's time to bring in Cherry Assist. and for us bring in that outsource, that think like Apple moment. Let's outsource to the to the services we need to get at. But we'll do it when it means that the value that we can now go into the next step becomes hugely important. So the business of the future will be very much around AI first driven by highly productive, highly paid people. I think that's the model that we're gonna strive to more. and I think unless we can demonstrate that, the the employment of people is gonna be quite an interesting challenge because Now I'm competing with, you know, I want somebody to come in and says, Look, I do AI, I know it. I know its limitations. I check the hallucinations, all the stuff we talk about. Yeah. But

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: but but the outcome is is that the twenty hours that I pay you is twenty hours human time augmented by forty hours of AI time. Mm-hmm. Rather than twenty hours of drudgery writing bits of paper, which we know we don't need to do anymore. So That that clock punching, I think, is gonna be different. I think that the productivity level we get will be very will be much, much higher. And the stuff I get through, I wake up at six in the morning, I'll have a cup of coffee. The first hour I spend using AI technology is my pr most productive hour in the entire day. And it's probably about what would have been four hours of work is now sixty minutes of work. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: Yeah, it makes sense. I like what you mentioned about, you know, bringing on someone who not only like knows how to use AI but understands the limitations as well. I think that is actually a skill that is often overlooked where as you mentioned, that sometimes we often fall on really two different extreme polarized side. Either people are very, very dependent on AI, which limits of course the the creative thinking, analytical thinking, and of course. There's people who are just not willing to learn or find ways to integrate it in a way that's boosting efficiency and the speed and the productivity and everything like that. I I would love to talk to you more about your experience. So obviously, you you you've been working with us a cherry assistant to actually, you know, be in the process to bring on someone on board. I'd be curious to know. probably you've had. conversations with my other colleagues. But how did you hear about us and what made you decide to try offshore hiring?

speaker-0: well that's the power of AI, Carmen. So we I well I looked at it before back about two, three years ago, Philippines was kind of the pace people were talking about it, and we're looking at onboarding people. And actually we had somebody part time in the business who was best set in the Philippines, but the challenge I had we couldn't control it and it was quite difficult and and there was probably a it fell between the gaps in terms of management of those people. So we were look I I looked around again and go, look, we're in a we're in a sprint phase now. We're in a sort of a three to six month project that I need to get move an awful lot of admin stuff really, really quickly, particularly like Visca Care, you know, literally is launching, so it's not even fundamentally launched. And so we've just engaged our PR team to start rolling that stuff out. And the stuff that I would have been handling now is just going to get too big. So we've got to bring somebody in sitting in behind that. So when I went to ChatGPT, I said, Look, walk me through who's out there in the offshore space. And we'd heard about the South African dynamic because I had spoken to a competitor of yours at that stage. And I said, Look, I'm a great believer. If there's one, there's more than one. So I I go to Chat GPT and go, we're working with these guys. Tell me who the competitors are and give me a fundamental analysis between the two of those. And so it came out of a chat GPT AI conversation that you guys got recommended. I hadn't heard about you until that was the process of it. So there's the power of AI for for making selection process in terms of where it works.

speaker-1: Okay, yeah, that's very good to hear. I'm always curious to know how you heard about us, how you came across us, and what made you decide to work with us because obviously you mentioned, you know, you were also you know, researching the other competitors. So what made you decide to work with us and your experience so far in the whole sourcing recurring process?

speaker-0: To be to be fair, I think it came down to to to value and cost and those things become important. and then secondly, I mean, you know, the onboarding experience was good. and then that ability to have a choice of four or five candidates that we've been able to vet and go through. and we're at that decision making process right now in terms of who we go forward with. But you know, so that handhelding gave me the confidence, the quality of candidates that we've seen has been very good. and you know it's throwing up the right sort of surprises you want to go and you go and take a look at and and you know if you back test the the the the recommendations you guys get it's it's pr it's pretty good. So you know it's that whole combined experience you're looking for. and I and obviously the fact that you are responsible for the management of the people as opposed to us, because you know, I just want somebody to get a job done. I don't want to get involved in the day to day management side of stuff and the flexibility that brings us as a business Allows us to move fast and hard.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. No, that's very lovely to hear. And we definitely appreciate the the positive feedback about what we are able to how we're able to really partner up and support you in terms of finding the right person to bring you to help them really just deliver. I'd love to know from like a general point of view, there's probably a lot of business founders out there considering to bring on someone offshore. what kind of recommendations or suggestions do you have?

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I I suppose you know we live in a w we've been talking about AI and digitization and and all those things at this time it's like we've we've lived in in the world and and so cost in any business is a factor. but also risk of hiring people is quite significant. So, you know, we're we're based in in the UK or Northern Ireland, so we kinda straddle Northern South Ireland. The time that it takes me to vet research on board, employ, pay POI, PRSI, have the responsibilities that go with that, is an investment at the right time. So it's not that we won't do it. It's just that the time for us it takes involved in that at this stage of where we are at the business is just not the best use of our time. Now Will we grow our team in house? Yes, we will. Will we will we employ people on our own payroll? Absolutely. But we every business needs flexibility. And so it's flexibility to me right now is what's hugely important. the UK government has been largely unfair to UK businesses. I mean, they've up the the the tax rates. You've got this ever growing minimum rate of w wage rate. And that rate in somewhere like South Africa or Zimbabwe has higher value to the employees that we employ. Whereas if we go here, it's seen as not enough money. So

speaker-1: Yeah, market.

speaker-0: there's a natural Yeah, so so there's a natural challenge and and fight around that. And I see it with clients where, you know, they they pay they pay what they believe is a good wage. But you know, Ireland and the UK is very expensive countries to live in. And so That creates challenges as a business owner that you're fighting employee expectations that right now just don't suit our business. We're in launch phase, we're a small business, we're trying to grow. That it's it's an antagonism I don't need. I need people who'll come in, be happy with what they're getting paid because they've agreed it. And so we'll deliver at the point that we need that delivery time and that delivery process.

speaker-1: Yeah. And of course that's also like a very way to have like a sustainable long-term retention for both, you know, the client and of course the new hire joining in as well. it's all about the retention piece and everything like that. So, Ian, tell me what are you focusing on next? So obviously right now you're about to launch the Visica Care, but what what are the what are the other next steps? whether it's expanding your team or whether it's looking into expanding locations perhaps. what what's next for you?

speaker-0: yeah, well that's kind of an interesting piece. I suppose so I'm accidentally in healthcare, right? That's not you know, I'm not a GP, I don't have a training in healthcare. I'm just come from a business background and and I I come from a solutions background. So to me, as a as a typical entrepreneur, we see a problem and we think we can orchestrate a solution and therefore that's what we go and do. And and it's easy because It's stuff that I need. You know, if we take the experience, we would have been with a particular health insurance provider in Ireland for twenty years. They premium when we started would have been about three hundred Euros. The last renewal letter they wanted to charge me nine hundred and twenty euros a month for. Now that's I don't know anybody that was a fifty percent rise. And I'm going, I don't know anybody who paid themselves a fifty percent rise in that particular period of time. So I can see why I need it. And therefore, if blindly, if I think it's good enough for me, it's good enough for other people. The the next project, I think I want to get led by younger people, and if that makes sense. So I took on so Kropali, who works with me, Kropali came in to head up our tech project and has been very influential and helping us getting Visca care built the time we've been able to do it and the way we've been able to do that. But she came into the business wanting to try and help solve female healthcare and access to female healthcare. So Kripalli comes from, she's from Mobai originally, has been in Northern Ireland, came in to study and experienced the differences between North of Irish healthcare and what she's used to back in India and the challenges she faced in trying to get herd around her own female health queries that she had. So the vision I would have for Visca care is we start seeding a younger team than me. and I'd be happy to oversee that and let a younger team drive out how do we help change female health, particularly in that global mobility space, Carmen. So you know I've got three daughters that's gonna be very expensive for for weddings in due course. But therefore if we could start to figure out the challenges that female health has, then as part of what Visca Care can do, I think that's a really interesting project. But I'm mid-50s bloke. I can't lead a female healthcare project. That's gonna be led for f by females. So if if I if I thought that we could I could see two or three next generation in the business who take forward that mantle, I think that's something I'd be I'd be very excited about.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's definitely a very interesting perspective as well, because then they're able to tell from their perspective, you know, what the the bottlenecks, the the needs and the challenges are as well. Also also especially like I've heard a lot and when it comes to like female health care, it's often it's it's also quite difficult as well. so I think it's gonna be quite an interesting yeah, new chapter as well for you to explore. So, Ian, just one final question that I love to ask every single one of the my guests coming on to this podcast. So if there was one business advice, or maybe you might have several that you would like to pass on to the audience, whether they're aspiring business founders or considering entrepreneurship or just general curiosity about what it's like to start your own business, what would it be?

speaker-0: you could probably drive that several ways, but I I'm I'm gonna drive it out not necessarily my own business, but but by I mean, I I do advise some businesses, I think I mentioned earlier on. I think the biggest single thing it comes back to is cash flow. And secondly, sales cures most ills. And so, you know, when you talk about founders and ideas, everything's a great idea until they go try and find customers for it. And that's the difficult piece. I've got a I've got a friend of mine who's actually he's a developer in his own right, and he's developed a an interesting AI modeled software. And he goes, Look at it all the time and I said, Grand, I said, Look, everyone assumes the tech works. Therefore, don't fall in love with the technology. Mm-hmm. And I said, Secondly, everybody's gonna ask the question, well, AI w but AI can just do this. So what makes your product any better? And so the world's changed. You know, we can't just rock up and go, I've got a great idea because ideas are not great. So now we have to build from the customer first and we build backwards. And up until now we could build the tech first and then find the customer second. And that roadmap is just just too long from now on. So as I said to my friend, I said, you're only at the front door. Now you have to learn how to sell. And I I take it all the way back to my decision back in the in the you know early mid nineties was I know to be an accountant, I need to learn to sell. So I've been a I've been a a student of selling for the last 30 years, because that's where you're gonna have to live or die by the transfer of ideas. So that's what I would say to people, you know, take the idea, find the market first, and then reengineer the technology second, not the other way around.

speaker-1: Great. Yeah. Loving everything that I hear. Also because of the the relevance and how to as also when the trend also involves, the market involves, with the also with the the role of AI as well. So definitely appreciate this really useful, interesting approach and model for whatever idea you choose, you pick it and then you transform it, see what the market is like and then see how you would, of course, best execute that as well. Ian, thank you so much again for coming on to Behind the Founders. It was very, very lovely to speak with you and also to hear a little bit about your experience as well working directly with us at Terry Assistants. So thank you so much again for coming on. be sure to stay tuned for the next episode and thanks again.

speaker-0: Thank you, Carbon. Much appreciated and thanks for the opportunity to be home and share some of my ad nauseum ideas at this stage. Thank you.